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	<title>Comments on: Trying Really Hard to Get Upset About Pornography</title>
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	<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/</link>
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		<title>By: John Tabin</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-919</link>
		<dc:creator>John Tabin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-919</guid>
		<description>So he is, since almost a year ago. I&#039;d missed that. Cue Emily Litella.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So he is, since almost a year ago. I&#8217;d missed that. Cue Emily Litella.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Strummer</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-916</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Strummer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 22:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-916</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;adultery standard (Douthat and Tushnet included) aren’t actually married.&lt;/i&gt;

Douthat is married.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>adultery standard (Douthat and Tushnet included) aren’t actually married.</i></p>
<p>Douthat is married.</p>
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		<title>By: John Tabin</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-914</link>
		<dc:creator>John Tabin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 19:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-914</guid>
		<description>Social conservatives are supposed to care about the health of marriage as an institution. The norms that Douthat is proposing constitute a much graver threat to that institution than most of what social conservatives spend their time wringing their hands about. It&#039;s telling to note how many of the people pushing the porn=adultery standard (Douthat and Tushnet included) aren&#039;t actually married.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Social conservatives are supposed to care about the health of marriage as an institution. The norms that Douthat is proposing constitute a much graver threat to that institution than most of what social conservatives spend their time wringing their hands about. It&#8217;s telling to note how many of the people pushing the porn=adultery standard (Douthat and Tushnet included) aren&#8217;t actually married.</p>
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		<title>By: frank logan</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-911</link>
		<dc:creator>frank logan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 01:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-911</guid>
		<description>The viewing porn by teens insures that they at least have their facts right, which is important because society and the educational establishment have been coerced into providing them with anemic sex education that is far from accurate.  Porn is a more honest look at sex than the constant flow of near porn on commercial TV.  Neither deals with the emotional aspect of sex and that is where critics should focus their complaints.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The viewing porn by teens insures that they at least have their facts right, which is important because society and the educational establishment have been coerced into providing them with anemic sex education that is far from accurate.  Porn is a more honest look at sex than the constant flow of near porn on commercial TV.  Neither deals with the emotional aspect of sex and that is where critics should focus their complaints.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-909</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-909</guid>
		<description>Why is that all Christian fundamentalists constantly whine about the physical and mental health risks posed by porn and sexual freedom yet they do nothing to address the mental and physical risks caused by excessive sublimation and restraint? How many Americans are out of shape, obese, and diabetic because they lead bland, repressed, sexless lives? Diabetes, heart disease, and depression are everybit as deadly as HIV and STDs. I am willing to be that being in good shape but sleeping around (assuming one is safe) is far, far safer than being a fat, repressed Christian nitwit who eats horribly and has an unsatisfying sex life. Do the math.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is that all Christian fundamentalists constantly whine about the physical and mental health risks posed by porn and sexual freedom yet they do nothing to address the mental and physical risks caused by excessive sublimation and restraint? How many Americans are out of shape, obese, and diabetic because they lead bland, repressed, sexless lives? Diabetes, heart disease, and depression are everybit as deadly as HIV and STDs. I am willing to be that being in good shape but sleeping around (assuming one is safe) is far, far safer than being a fat, repressed Christian nitwit who eats horribly and has an unsatisfying sex life. Do the math.</p>
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		<title>By: Molly</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-908</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-908</guid>
		<description>I think hatred of porn is just another tool people use to manipulate their partners and make them feel guilty. It&#039;s just more popular for women to do so, I think, because it seems that we have less of an appreciation for the need to get off with visual aid. Who knew that watching people have sex means &lt;i&gt;you&#039;re&lt;/i&gt; somehow the one sticking it in that vag? Please. Porn isn&#039;t evil, but people who use it as an excuse to play the morality queen in their relationships are. I refuse to believe that anyone who has actually watched porn would be unable to see it for anything but what it is: some disturbingly high-def shots of people&#039;s crotches and a lot of grunting. Also, perpetuating the myth that all women hate porn probably hurts the market for porn made by and for women, which is much better and doesn&#039;t have so much dispassionate squealing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think hatred of porn is just another tool people use to manipulate their partners and make them feel guilty. It&#8217;s just more popular for women to do so, I think, because it seems that we have less of an appreciation for the need to get off with visual aid. Who knew that watching people have sex means <i>you&#8217;re</i> somehow the one sticking it in that vag? Please. Porn isn&#8217;t evil, but people who use it as an excuse to play the morality queen in their relationships are. I refuse to believe that anyone who has actually watched porn would be unable to see it for anything but what it is: some disturbingly high-def shots of people&#8217;s crotches and a lot of grunting. Also, perpetuating the myth that all women hate porn probably hurts the market for porn made by and for women, which is much better and doesn&#8217;t have so much dispassionate squealing.</p>
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		<title>By: not_amused</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-907</link>
		<dc:creator>not_amused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-907</guid>
		<description>&#039;Is the guy looking at porn with his buddies but definitely not masturbating or even sporting an erection at the same time committing an infidelity?&#039;

To condense a tortured path from the article - 
&#039; The man who lets his eyes stray across the photo of Gisele Bündchen, bare-assed and beguiling on the cover of GQ, has betrayed his wife in some sense, but only a 21st-century Savonarola would describe that sort of thing as adultery.... This seems like a potentially reasonable distinction to draw. But the fantasy-versus-reality, pixels-versus-flesh binary feels more appropriate to the pre-Internet landscape.... And it feels much more appropriate to the tamer sorts of pornography, from the increasingly archaic (dirty playing cards and pinups, smutty books and the Penthouse letters section) to the of-the-moment (the topless photos and sex-scene stills in the more restrained precincts of the online pornosphere), than it does to the harder-core material at the heart of the porn economy....But hard-core pornography is real sex by definition, and the two sexual acts involved—the on-camera copulation, and the masturbation it enables—are interdependent: neither would happen without the other.&#039;

And here, he actually could make a decent point - the porn I enjoy doesn&#039;t come from the &#039;porn economy&#039; - lots of people are more than happy enough to share, and have been doing so since the old Usenet days. Not to mention the unbelievable amount of erotica that has been produced over history.

Instead, he just flakes out - as if the pornography my wife and I have made and shared is somehow related to an industry, or that the fact that we create and share is something utterly beyond his conception of how people act. 

Of course, I have to admit that Douhat seems to have a lot more experience with parts of the Internet that really leave me and my wife cold, which leads to the sort of speculation which isn&#039;t worth my time.

Especially with a phrase like &#039;a porn apologist&#039; - which I guess describes me, and by extension, my wife. Though honestly, we are better than apologists - we are pornographers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Is the guy looking at porn with his buddies but definitely not masturbating or even sporting an erection at the same time committing an infidelity?&#8217;</p>
<p>To condense a tortured path from the article &#8211;<br />
&#8216; The man who lets his eyes stray across the photo of Gisele Bündchen, bare-assed and beguiling on the cover of GQ, has betrayed his wife in some sense, but only a 21st-century Savonarola would describe that sort of thing as adultery&#8230;. This seems like a potentially reasonable distinction to draw. But the fantasy-versus-reality, pixels-versus-flesh binary feels more appropriate to the pre-Internet landscape&#8230;. And it feels much more appropriate to the tamer sorts of pornography, from the increasingly archaic (dirty playing cards and pinups, smutty books and the Penthouse letters section) to the of-the-moment (the topless photos and sex-scene stills in the more restrained precincts of the online pornosphere), than it does to the harder-core material at the heart of the porn economy&#8230;.But hard-core pornography is real sex by definition, and the two sexual acts involved—the on-camera copulation, and the masturbation it enables—are interdependent: neither would happen without the other.&#8217;</p>
<p>And here, he actually could make a decent point &#8211; the porn I enjoy doesn&#8217;t come from the &#8216;porn economy&#8217; &#8211; lots of people are more than happy enough to share, and have been doing so since the old Usenet days. Not to mention the unbelievable amount of erotica that has been produced over history.</p>
<p>Instead, he just flakes out &#8211; as if the pornography my wife and I have made and shared is somehow related to an industry, or that the fact that we create and share is something utterly beyond his conception of how people act. </p>
<p>Of course, I have to admit that Douhat seems to have a lot more experience with parts of the Internet that really leave me and my wife cold, which leads to the sort of speculation which isn&#8217;t worth my time.</p>
<p>Especially with a phrase like &#8216;a porn apologist&#8217; &#8211; which I guess describes me, and by extension, my wife. Though honestly, we are better than apologists &#8211; we are pornographers.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Timmons</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-906</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Timmons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:45:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-906</guid>
		<description>I just wish everyone would practice what they preach, privately.

They could also preach what they practice, the same way.

One man&#039;s porn, is another&#039;s Sear catalog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wish everyone would practice what they preach, privately.</p>
<p>They could also preach what they practice, the same way.</p>
<p>One man&#8217;s porn, is another&#8217;s Sear catalog.</p>
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		<title>By: question beggar</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-905</link>
		<dc:creator>question beggar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-905</guid>
		<description>Great article; it&#039;s time someone shut that shit down. The whole piece by Ross Douthat was based on a logical fallacy, &quot;the on-camera copulation, and the masturbation it enables—are interdependent: neither would happen without the other.&quot; I think that&#039;s the crux here: Does porn cause masturbation? And if so, does that constitute infidelity? On the contrary, I think porn provokes the imagination which in turn may be necessary and is at least helpful in masturbation. But guys with enough privacy will masturbate with or without pornography. 

In general, the tone of Ross&#039; article was too prudish to be useful in discussing this topic with any degree of seriousness. I couldn&#039;t tell for example whether he was implying masturbation when he referred to &quot;viewing porn&quot; or not. His admission &quot;I’ve looked at porn&quot; is ambiguous at best. Is the guy looking at porn with his buddies but definitely not masturbating or even sporting an erection at the same time committing an infidelity? Who the hell knows.

In the end, I think that porn and masturbation, like almost any other activity, can be detrimental to a monogamous relationship if it interferes with time spent together and one&#039;s partner&#039;s wishes. But in general, I think most people would do better to feel less guilty about sex rather than more so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article; it&#8217;s time someone shut that shit down. The whole piece by Ross Douthat was based on a logical fallacy, &#8220;the on-camera copulation, and the masturbation it enables—are interdependent: neither would happen without the other.&#8221; I think that&#8217;s the crux here: Does porn cause masturbation? And if so, does that constitute infidelity? On the contrary, I think porn provokes the imagination which in turn may be necessary and is at least helpful in masturbation. But guys with enough privacy will masturbate with or without pornography. </p>
<p>In general, the tone of Ross&#8217; article was too prudish to be useful in discussing this topic with any degree of seriousness. I couldn&#8217;t tell for example whether he was implying masturbation when he referred to &#8220;viewing porn&#8221; or not. His admission &#8220;I’ve looked at porn&#8221; is ambiguous at best. Is the guy looking at porn with his buddies but definitely not masturbating or even sporting an erection at the same time committing an infidelity? Who the hell knows.</p>
<p>In the end, I think that porn and masturbation, like almost any other activity, can be detrimental to a monogamous relationship if it interferes with time spent together and one&#8217;s partner&#8217;s wishes. But in general, I think most people would do better to feel less guilty about sex rather than more so.</p>
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		<title>By: Angry Sam</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-904</link>
		<dc:creator>Angry Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-904</guid>
		<description>Under what conceivable sort of healthy relationship could porn use be considered &quot;betrayal?&quot;  Monogamy does not require anyone to pretend that they are not sexually attracted to someone who is not their SO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Under what conceivable sort of healthy relationship could porn use be considered &#8220;betrayal?&#8221;  Monogamy does not require anyone to pretend that they are not sexually attracted to someone who is not their SO.</p>
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		<title>By: ossicle</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-903</link>
		<dc:creator>ossicle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-903</guid>
		<description>Joe Strummer:

Nice analogy with defecation.  I&#039;ll use it as an opportunity to provide one of my favorite exchanges from &quot;Family Guy:

Peter: I&#039;m looking for some toilet training books.

Salesman: We have the popular &quot;Everybody Poops,&quot; or the less popular &quot;Nobody poops but you.&quot;

Peter:  (hesitates) Well, you see, we&#039;re Catholic...

Salesman: Ah, then you&#039;ll want &quot;You&#039;re a Naughty, Naughty Boy, and That&#039;s Concentrated Evil Coming Out the Back of You.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe Strummer:</p>
<p>Nice analogy with defecation.  I&#8217;ll use it as an opportunity to provide one of my favorite exchanges from &#8220;Family Guy:</p>
<p>Peter: I&#8217;m looking for some toilet training books.</p>
<p>Salesman: We have the popular &#8220;Everybody Poops,&#8221; or the less popular &#8220;Nobody poops but you.&#8221;</p>
<p>Peter:  (hesitates) Well, you see, we&#8217;re Catholic&#8230;</p>
<p>Salesman: Ah, then you&#8217;ll want &#8220;You&#8217;re a Naughty, Naughty Boy, and That&#8217;s Concentrated Evil Coming Out the Back of You.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: nil</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-902</link>
		<dc:creator>nil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-902</guid>
		<description>Bim Bim--
You actually raise a decent point, in a way.  I view porn as inherently, substantially inferior to actual sex, which is part of the reason why the idea that it could be cheating is so ridiculous to me.  But, for the same reason, I barely use it at all when I&#039;m in a relationship, and never really when sex with my partner is available (unless we watch it together).  I would agree that if porn is replacing sex, there is a problem--but then, I&#039;d say the problem is in the relationship, not universal to pornography.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bim Bim&#8211;<br />
You actually raise a decent point, in a way.  I view porn as inherently, substantially inferior to actual sex, which is part of the reason why the idea that it could be cheating is so ridiculous to me.  But, for the same reason, I barely use it at all when I&#8217;m in a relationship, and never really when sex with my partner is available (unless we watch it together).  I would agree that if porn is replacing sex, there is a problem&#8211;but then, I&#8217;d say the problem is in the relationship, not universal to pornography.</p>
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		<title>By: Wax Banks</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-901</link>
		<dc:creator>Wax Banks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-901</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Cervantes, for using &#039;beg the question&#039; correctly!

Also: well-put, Kerry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Cervantes, for using &#8216;beg the question&#8217; correctly!</p>
<p>Also: well-put, Kerry.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-900</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-900</guid>
		<description>If I ask some guy to give up porn for me, does that mean I have to give *my* porn up for him, too?  

::considers::

Ain&#039;t a-gonna happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I ask some guy to give up porn for me, does that mean I have to give *my* porn up for him, too?  </p>
<p>::considers::</p>
<p>Ain&#8217;t a-gonna happen.</p>
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		<title>By: montresor</title>
		<link>http://kerryhowley.com/2008/09/17/trying-really-hard-to-get-upset-about-pornography/comment-page-1/#comment-899</link>
		<dc:creator>montresor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kerryhowley.com/?p=145#comment-899</guid>
		<description>Oh dear. My partner of 19 years and I consume porn. Together and separately. Sometimes we gratify ourselves separately. Sometimes we get a little charged up separately and then have hot fun in the sheets together. Porn for us is different from what it is for it is for others, but one thing it seems to very reliably be is a blank screen for people to project their sexual and moral thoughts on. Just for the record, I&#039;m a man and she&#039;s a woman. I like visual porn -- still images and videos -- and she likes written porn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh dear. My partner of 19 years and I consume porn. Together and separately. Sometimes we gratify ourselves separately. Sometimes we get a little charged up separately and then have hot fun in the sheets together. Porn for us is different from what it is for it is for others, but one thing it seems to very reliably be is a blank screen for people to project their sexual and moral thoughts on. Just for the record, I&#8217;m a man and she&#8217;s a woman. I like visual porn &#8212; still images and videos &#8212; and she likes written porn.</p>
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